Creating Passive Income with Mortgage Notes

[00:00:00] The Dream of Passive Income, Right?

[00:00:02] That's why we do what we do.

[00:00:03] The freedom to build businesses, to create cash flow, to have lifestyle.

[00:00:08] Not to work in our businesses, but maybe on our businesses and scale out and take some

[00:00:12] of that extra cash and put it into other assets.

[00:00:15] I know we talk a lot about real estate here, but any assets that can generate and spin

[00:00:20] off cash or passive income is a friend of ours.

[00:00:23] So, we have Fred Moskowitz, the alternative investment expert here who has done some amazing

[00:00:30] things with it.

[00:00:31] Has a book out at the topic and I want to dive deep in there.

[00:00:36] Welcome to The Brick and Mortar Money Show.

[00:00:39] The podcast dedicated to helping business owners and professionals achieve wealth,

[00:00:45] autonomy and control through commercial property ownership.

[00:00:48] Join us as we unlock the power of real estate to transform your business and investment strategies.

[00:00:55] Whether you're seeking to expand, invest or gain more freedom in your entrepreneurial

[00:01:00] journey, this is your destination for insightful stories, expert advice and actionable strategies.

[00:01:08] Welcome.

[00:01:12] Fred, welcome to the show today man.

[00:01:14] Thank you Paul.

[00:01:15] It's great to be here.

[00:01:17] Yeah.

[00:01:18] Yeah.

[00:01:18] Absolutely.

[00:01:18] I always love to host somebody from Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love.

[00:01:24] Yes.

[00:01:26] Yes.

[00:01:26] That gives it a good name.

[00:01:29] It lives up to the name, maybe not the reputation, but anyway.

[00:01:34] Fred, so let's dive in here man.

[00:01:37] Just real fast.

[00:01:38] Bring everybody up to speed on how you got into what you're doing and I know you

[00:01:44] speak all over the country and you've got a lot of things happening with this alternative

[00:01:47] investment strategies that you developed and utilized.

[00:01:50] So bring us up to speed man.

[00:01:51] Yeah.

[00:01:52] Thank you Paul.

[00:01:53] I'll start out by saying my main focus, my business focus and expertise is all in

[00:02:00] the area of mortgage note investing and we can get into a little more about that throughout

[00:02:08] the interview.

[00:02:10] But let me say that and I'm sure this will resonate with a lot of people.

[00:02:18] A lot of people like to invest in real estate.

[00:02:23] It's a powerful asset class.

[00:02:25] I love it.

[00:02:26] I think it's wonderful and I feel that just about everyone should spend some time looking

[00:02:33] at it at least and considering and seeing if it's right for you.

[00:02:37] It's a tremendous way to build wealth.

[00:02:40] If you know successful individuals in your circle of friends, family, people that you know

[00:02:47] that have generated a lot of wealth, you will often find that real estate has been

[00:02:53] a part of that in some form.

[00:02:56] Right.

[00:02:56] And so here's the distinction.

[00:03:02] Real estate, a lot of people know about investing in real estate.

[00:03:07] We can talk about investing in single family houses or commercial property or multifamily

[00:03:14] apartment buildings, even vacation property and short term rentals.

[00:03:19] Very popular right now.

[00:03:20] But what about if we were to talk about investing in the paper and what that is it's

[00:03:27] investing in the financing all the notes and the mortgages that are associated with

[00:03:33] all of these properties.

[00:03:36] So note investing is a very interesting part of the real estate business.

[00:03:40] And a lot of people just don't talk about it.

[00:03:44] A lot of investors, they don't pay any attention to it.

[00:03:48] Most investors when they think of a note in a mortgage, they think about being

[00:03:52] the borrower and not as being the lender.

[00:03:55] But just imagine that through note investing, what it does is it allows you to step

[00:04:02] across the aisle and be the bank.

[00:04:05] And now you transition from being the one making the monthly payments to being

[00:04:09] the one receiving the monthly payments.

[00:04:12] And so this really adds an element of stability.

[00:04:18] It's a cash flow investment and allows you to really increase

[00:04:23] the predictability of your cash flow, which for a lot of a lot of investors

[00:04:28] I found is that they lack that in their investment portfolio and all the assets

[00:04:34] they own. There's not so much predictability and income there.

[00:04:39] And so investing in debt in notes is a great way to do that.

[00:04:44] And there's a lot of ways we can talk about passive, passive investing.

[00:04:50] We could talk about active investing and explore some of that today.

[00:04:54] Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Excellent.

[00:04:57] And you're right. We don't talk about that often.

[00:05:01] You know, our business, my business is loaning money.

[00:05:03] So we do this all the time.

[00:05:05] You rich and neat, right?

[00:05:06] Yeah, we hold notes and things like that too.

[00:05:10] And we have private investors, but by and large on the show

[00:05:14] in the conversations with clients is not about how they can invest in the debt

[00:05:19] but how they can invest in the asset itself.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:22] So unpack that a little bit.

[00:05:24] Yeah. Yeah. Investing in the real estate itself is great,

[00:05:28] especially because you have the ability to use leverage and acquire property

[00:05:34] for the amount of your down payment, right?

[00:05:37] Which is really great, especially when you're starting out in life.

[00:05:41] You may not have all the capital to go and purchase a property and cash.

[00:05:46] So of course, get financing.

[00:05:49] And it's a great way to build wealth, especially when you're starting out.

[00:05:54] Now, fast forward a bit.

[00:05:56] Once that you've built up equity, you've you've created wealth and other assets

[00:06:01] like real estate on other areas, what can be really powerful

[00:06:06] is taking that equity, taking that capital and redeploying it into debt.

[00:06:12] And what it does is it really has a way of skyrocketing your rate of return

[00:06:16] when you do that.

[00:06:18] And so that's an distinction I always like to mention

[00:06:23] and the area that I like to focus on is buying loans that exist

[00:06:31] on the secondary market, which is a little bit different than than originating.

[00:06:37] It's it's a different business.

[00:06:39] It's a different strategy.

[00:06:40] There are so many ways, so many niches within node investing.

[00:06:46] And so right in our conversation, we're already seeing that

[00:06:50] we're in the same business, but a little bit different approaches

[00:06:54] and different investment thesis as well.

[00:06:58] Yeah, yeah. Well, so so let's bring us up to speed.

[00:07:03] So you talked about sort of this progression from somebody.

[00:07:08] They go into business, they they're putting all their time, energy,

[00:07:11] effort and money in that to grow it.

[00:07:13] Then they get to the point where they're pretty successful or spending off

[00:07:16] cash that they want to now leverage.

[00:07:18] Or it could be a it could be a high performance of professionals.

[00:07:21] Well, yeah, it starts investing in real estate.

[00:07:23] They want to get the leveraged tax benefits and all that.

[00:07:26] But then further in the life cycle, you're talking about as that wealth develops.

[00:07:33] Now is a good opportunity to start deploying some of that into notes.

[00:07:37] So so so unpack that about what does that look like?

[00:07:41] I mean, you're talking to people that probably have never considered

[00:07:44] that that whole idea concept and may not even know it.

[00:07:47] It's a possibility.

[00:07:48] Right. So let's talk about what what is note investing in general, right?

[00:07:53] It's investing in and acquiring loans.

[00:07:58] Loans that are backed by real estate.

[00:08:01] You have protection, downside protection because of the collateral

[00:08:05] that was pledged to secure the loan.

[00:08:08] And so.

[00:08:11] It is possible for investors to buy an existing note

[00:08:15] on the secondary market.

[00:08:17] And when you do that, you're stepping into the shoes of the lender.

[00:08:21] And now you are secured on title by the property

[00:08:26] and receiving monthly payments.

[00:08:28] And so that creates a cash flow stream.

[00:08:31] And that is that's the basis of this business.

[00:08:37] Now there are.

[00:08:42] What I like about it is that we're able to invest

[00:08:49] in notes all over the U.S. nationwide.

[00:08:52] It's not limited to specific market.

[00:08:56] It can be if you want, but I like the idea of diversity.

[00:09:01] So we buy loans nationwide and invest nationwide.

[00:09:05] And it gives it gives a nice diversity to the portfolio.

[00:09:10] But the way that note investing is, is that we are able

[00:09:18] to quickly ramp up a portfolio and scale very large,

[00:09:24] a lot faster than it would take buying real estate

[00:09:28] and owning and managing properties.

[00:09:31] And as I said earlier, it's a great real estate investing.

[00:09:35] It's a great business.

[00:09:37] I love it.

[00:09:39] However, it's not for everyone.

[00:09:42] Right?

[00:09:43] I speak with many investors that are what you would call tired landlords.

[00:09:48] Maybe they were only at it for one year or maybe for 20.

[00:09:53] But it's a lot of work, a lot of headaches.

[00:09:57] It's profitable as well.

[00:10:00] But again, it's not for everyone.

[00:10:02] And for someone that might be a busy, busy professional,

[00:10:05] a business owner, you're focused on your business.

[00:10:11] You're focused on your profession and being the best you can be at that.

[00:10:16] And so the thought of dealing with rental properties

[00:10:20] and tenants and all that, it might not be very appealing

[00:10:24] or it may just not fit into your overall lifestyle.

[00:10:28] And so I always recommend look, look at mortgage notes

[00:10:33] because you can scale up a portfolio.

[00:10:38] It's there's less moving parts to it.

[00:10:40] It's less hands on most of the work you do is in the beginning

[00:10:44] to do diligence and the acquiring of notes.

[00:10:47] And there's really two ways to approach this that I always talk about

[00:10:52] when someone says, hey, Fred, they come to me say, hey, Fred,

[00:10:55] how do I get started investing in notes?

[00:10:58] Well, there's two ways if you want to be an active note investor

[00:11:03] you go out to the secondary marketplace, start buying notes

[00:11:08] and build up a portfolio that way.

[00:11:11] And what you should do, what I always recommend

[00:11:14] you place those loans with a loan service or servicing company

[00:11:18] that will manage the loans on a day to day basis for you.

[00:11:22] And then they'll handle collecting the payments.

[00:11:25] They'll send those payments on to the lender each month.

[00:11:28] And it just takes away a lot of the administrative burden.

[00:11:32] Right.

[00:11:34] But the work really is in finding the notes, building the relationships

[00:11:39] to have access to buy them as well as managing the portfolio

[00:11:45] and keeping the capital deployed at all times.

[00:11:48] Right. That's active note investing.

[00:11:51] I will say if it's something you want to do

[00:11:55] you should be prepared for full time business

[00:11:58] because that's really what it takes to be successful.

[00:12:02] Now, if someone wants to be passive, there's another option

[00:12:06] which is to invest in a mortgage note fund.

[00:12:09] And what is a fund?

[00:12:11] A mortgage note fund is structured very much like a real estate syndication

[00:12:17] is where there's an offering to raise capital.

[00:12:21] And then the fund manager will raise capital for multiple investors

[00:12:25] and then they'll go out to the secondary market.

[00:12:28] To buy notes with that capital.

[00:12:30] But the distinction here is now they're dealing with a bulk quantity.

[00:12:35] They're not looking at buying one or two notes.

[00:12:38] They're looking at buying 10, 20, 50 or 100 notes in one transaction.

[00:12:44] Right. And now there's an economies of scale

[00:12:48] that come into place that will negotiate a better discount on buying those loans.

[00:12:53] Right. Loans can be bought for less than the amount owed on them.

[00:12:57] That's the discount.

[00:12:58] Right.

[00:13:00] And so they will do that.

[00:13:02] They'll have already the systems and vendors set up in place

[00:13:06] to bring in those loans, manage the portfolio.

[00:13:10] And now the cash flow that comes in gets distributed to the investors.

[00:13:16] Now, for the investors, it's really hands on,

[00:13:19] which makes it ideal, especially if you were maybe investing

[00:13:22] out of a retirement account, maybe you have self directed

[00:13:26] IRA or 401K that you want to use retirement,

[00:13:29] account capital requiring you to be hands off from the investment.

[00:13:34] It's a nice fit.

[00:13:36] It really works well.

[00:13:37] And so those are the two ways active, building the portfolio and managing it

[00:13:43] or passive, which is investing in a note fund that's managed for you.

[00:13:47] And what I like about the passive approach is for for you as the investor,

[00:13:53] you get to leverage the expertise, the relationships.

[00:14:00] And the access to notes that the fund managers have.

[00:14:05] And in return, you get a return on your capital, which is really nice.

[00:14:11] OK, so that makes sense.

[00:14:14] So to kind of sum it back up, so basically the two types of note

[00:14:18] investing is the active side where you're finding, sourcing, buying the notes

[00:14:24] maybe one at a time, two at a time, probably not fractional pieces of notes.

[00:14:30] No, the entire entire and then you're you have you or your designated

[00:14:38] third party, hopefully servicer is going to have to receive payments

[00:14:42] and manage all that because you really are the bank in essence.

[00:14:47] So in that scenario, to your point, it's a full time job because you've got

[00:14:52] to have you got to make sure that there's a lot of compliance and things

[00:14:55] involved with that receive payments paying out people, people move and all sorts of things.

[00:15:00] So but the passive side is more like a stock fund, a bond fund where

[00:15:06] you have a manager basically doing that at scale and you're buying

[00:15:09] in that case, probably fractional pieces or whatever, however much you want to put in.

[00:15:14] There might be some minimums or whatnot, but there's no day to day management.

[00:15:18] You're getting just a return from this fund that's more diversified than one

[00:15:23] or two notes clearly could be 10s, thousands or whatever.

[00:15:28] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:15:29] Right. Be hundreds or thousands of notes.

[00:15:31] Yes. OK. And then are there different classes like different credit

[00:15:36] classes of bonds or mortgage notes that based on risk layering and that sort of thing?

[00:15:42] Yeah, for sure.

[00:15:44] There are so many types of notes and classifications.

[00:15:50] I like to focus on residential mortgage notes, which if you think of your

[00:15:56] Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac definition of a residential mortgage,

[00:16:00] one to four units, that's the most common.

[00:16:05] So the majority, the most notes on the secondary market are of that type.

[00:16:10] That's what I focus on.

[00:16:13] But you can also get into investing in commercial loans,

[00:16:19] whether they're office properties, retail, hospitality, all of that.

[00:16:26] Office buildings.

[00:16:28] There's also notes on all kinds of debt.

[00:16:32] Any kind of debt is bought and sold and traded on secure debt,

[00:16:36] secured debt, aviation debt, marine debt, construction equipment.

[00:16:43] There's no no end to that.

[00:16:48] And another area which is popular is there are funds that invest in

[00:16:56] hard money loans, commercial lending for real estate investors, the guys

[00:17:01] that buy property, acquire it, renovate it and then quickly put it

[00:17:06] back out on the market.

[00:17:07] That's another type of notes that's out there.

[00:17:12] And there are funds that that's what they specialize in,

[00:17:15] a little bit more risk, but certainly they pay a higher rate of return.

[00:17:20] And so you have.

[00:17:22] You have many options out there for sure.

[00:17:26] So and for our listeners who aren't familiar with capital markets

[00:17:30] and how that works, I mean, you know,

[00:17:33] thinking back to the agencies, the Fannie Freddie and the mortgage

[00:17:37] backed securities and all that in the secondary market.

[00:17:41] And you can take this deeper if you like.

[00:17:44] But the idea is that when someone gets a loan from a retail source,

[00:17:49] whether it's a bank or an investor or somebody,

[00:17:53] they're loaning money, maybe that they have in their account.

[00:17:57] We'll call it on their balance sheet or whatnot.

[00:17:59] Sometimes they get a lot of credit, but let's just say they have

[00:18:01] the money, local bank will loan you the money for that house.

[00:18:05] But then as soon as that loan closes and they fund it,

[00:18:08] they they're that much less money in their account.

[00:18:11] And so they want to keep loaning more money.

[00:18:13] So basically what they do is they take your loan or your note,

[00:18:18] you know, as Fred's talking about.

[00:18:21] And then they sell it on the secondary market

[00:18:24] in a host of different mechanisms of mannerisms, the way they do it.

[00:18:28] But basically they sell that.

[00:18:30] And and then they they basically then get their capital money back.

[00:18:35] They make a profit on that for selling it and they get their money back

[00:18:39] so then they can loan it to the next person.

[00:18:41] Exactly what you're suggesting, Fred, is this happens in basically any kind of

[00:18:46] capital investment, whether it's equipment or airplanes or yachts

[00:18:50] or hard money loans, fix and flip commercial, it's all done like that.

[00:18:55] And because of this great secondary market,

[00:18:58] it creates opportunity because we didn't have that.

[00:19:01] We have people like you buying these notes,

[00:19:04] then there would be limited capital available on the street for people to go

[00:19:08] build and buy and grow and expand.

[00:19:11] And it's one of the miracles of modern capitalism, isn't it?

[00:19:15] Yeah, that's that's so true.

[00:19:17] And so that cycle of originating loans

[00:19:22] and then reselling them, it happens every day, every day.

[00:19:28] And it happens at so many levels.

[00:19:30] Loans we buy loans, acquire loans for our portfolio.

[00:19:35] They may have been sold five, six, seven times prior.

[00:19:41] And we will see that in the chain of ownership

[00:19:45] in the loan and it could go years back.

[00:19:49] And that's that's all part of it.

[00:19:51] It happens when it's originated.

[00:19:53] It also happens when the the loan seller that's selling to me,

[00:19:59] it could be an individual investor, it might be a note fund or a hedge fund.

[00:20:04] They're selling the loan.

[00:20:05] Why? Because they want to recapitalize to get into their next deal.

[00:20:10] And so they'll sell the loan and they'll probably sell it at a discount

[00:20:15] because they need to make the transaction happen.

[00:20:18] There's there's some incentive there.

[00:20:20] And so there's always opportunity for investors

[00:20:23] that are well positioned in the marketplace to make the connection,

[00:20:28] connect the dots and close on the transaction.

[00:20:33] That's awesome.

[00:20:34] And so how does how does the

[00:20:37] how does the variation interest rates and what the Fed is doing?

[00:20:41] And you know, how does that impact the value of the note funds

[00:20:45] and the bond funds and specifically for what you're doing

[00:20:49] and what you say?

[00:20:50] Yeah, there's definitely an impact to pricing.

[00:20:54] However, keep in mind that a lot of the loans we buy,

[00:20:58] they were originated multiple years ago in the past.

[00:21:03] And so they're locked into whatever

[00:21:06] the the market rates were at that time.

[00:21:10] And so it does impact pricing for sure.

[00:21:14] When interest rates change drastically,

[00:21:17] the pricing is going to adjust accordingly.

[00:21:20] And so we always have to be aware of what's happening in the market

[00:21:25] and make adjustments accordingly.

[00:21:28] But if if loans are being sold

[00:21:32] that are on a very low interest rate,

[00:21:35] you can expect that the discount is going to be much greater there

[00:21:39] so that the numbers work for the transaction.

[00:21:42] Right, right.

[00:21:44] So so as the I was hoping you were going to get to that

[00:21:47] so as the interest rates fluctuate, the purchase price is going to change.

[00:21:51] And so that's

[00:21:54] but usually when interest rates fluctuate,

[00:21:57] the loans you already have in your portfolio, they are what they are.

[00:22:02] Right, they will be impacted.

[00:22:04] Of course, if you have floating rate loans, they will adjust.

[00:22:08] But a lot of times, especially on the residential side,

[00:22:12] they're fixed rate loans and so there's there's no change.

[00:22:16] And, you know, it really

[00:22:20] it doesn't impact the stability of the cash flow

[00:22:26] because if you bought good loans with a good track record and solid borrowers,

[00:22:31] they're going to continue paying on the loans.

[00:22:33] It doesn't matter if the interest rates went up or down.

[00:22:37] It doesn't matter if the property value went up or went down.

[00:22:40] People want to live in their homes no matter what.

[00:22:44] And of course, if interest rates go way down,

[00:22:48] well, the tendency is going to be stronger

[00:22:51] for property owners to refinance their loans and then you'll get cashed out.

[00:22:56] And that's that's another part of the business that it brings in, Paul,

[00:23:01] it brings in an element of randomness

[00:23:03] because you never know when a loan is going to get paid off.

[00:23:07] It can happen at any time.

[00:23:09] Right.

[00:23:09] And so our job as investors, very important is we have loans getting paid off.

[00:23:18] The capital is coming back in.

[00:23:21] And so our job to be a good steward of that capital

[00:23:25] is to go out and buy new loans with it, deploy it as quickly as possible.

[00:23:30] You don't want to be sitting on idle cash as an investor

[00:23:34] because you're not making money there.

[00:23:36] And so that's an important thing to keep in mind.

[00:23:39] Yeah, no, no, it's it's great.

[00:23:42] It's great.

[00:23:43] I had this this recollection when you're talking about that

[00:23:45] as you never know, one's going to be sold early, early in my my career.

[00:23:50] I got into a business and had a speaker came in a sales guy

[00:23:55] and I was building a sales team and he said, just plan on that

[00:23:59] a third of your sales guys are quitting at any one time.

[00:24:02] A third of them are sticking with you and a third of them are brand new.

[00:24:06] You know, so you're always, you know,

[00:24:09] there's always this refreshing this turnover and it's not that much different

[00:24:13] with bonds, you just don't know you're buying new one, something

[00:24:16] we're getting sold off, but you've got this this target rate of return, right?

[00:24:20] And consistent cash flow that you can expect.

[00:24:24] That's what you're building towards.

[00:24:26] It is. It is exactly right.

[00:24:27] And what really helps towards establishing stability with all of this

[00:24:33] is having good systems and processes in place, right, in your business

[00:24:37] and how you how you operate and how you conduct your affairs.

[00:24:41] That really goes a long way towards

[00:24:46] towards fostering a stability in and it could be in the midst

[00:24:51] of all kinds of chaos, right?

[00:24:53] And change and uncertainty.

[00:24:56] But you you're moving forward, you're navigating towards your goals

[00:25:00] and objectives and doing so in a successful manner.

[00:25:05] Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:07] No, it's an interesting concept and it's I know it's huge.

[00:25:10] It's never we don't talk about it much the behind the veil of what's happening.

[00:25:15] But you know, creating creating stable cash flow,

[00:25:20] passive consistent predictable cash flow, particularly as you get older

[00:25:25] and also cash flow that is, you know, you sort of alluded to this

[00:25:32] this idea of real estate that it's a tangible asset.

[00:25:37] You're not buying cryptocurrency.

[00:25:40] You're not buying, you know, the latest and greatest internet

[00:25:44] stock that has a lot of a lot of hype behind it.

[00:25:48] It's legitimate.

[00:25:49] It's people living in a house in this particular case, if you're in a residential

[00:25:54] and they want to live there, they got to live somewhere.

[00:25:57] They're paying their mortgage.

[00:25:59] And so they're going to pay it.

[00:26:00] And no matter how much gloom and doom the media wants to put out there,

[00:26:04] you know, people are not just going to amass just not

[00:26:08] you start to stop paying for their loans, right?

[00:26:11] And walk away.

[00:26:12] I mean, 2008 was it was an anomaly and that was crazy.

[00:26:17] But the laws have changed.

[00:26:19] The rules have changed back in 2010 with Dodd-Frank.

[00:26:21] We're not going to have that again.

[00:26:23] We don't have those kind of kind of crazy loans and paper out there.

[00:26:26] So.

[00:26:28] Yeah, that's that's so true.

[00:26:31] But even during these times of distress and turmoil, like you said,

[00:26:38] people still want to live in their homes.

[00:26:41] People prefer to live indoors in general, right?

[00:26:44] That's what that's what experience tells us.

[00:26:48] And so there's always a there's always a desire.

[00:26:54] There's always a market for desirable housing that's quality

[00:26:59] and people want a good place to live, raise your family to live, to enjoy life.

[00:27:06] And so that really adds an element of stability.

[00:27:11] Yeah. Yeah. No, that's awesome.

[00:27:13] Well, Fred, tell us how I know you've got a book.

[00:27:16] Talk about your book and your other resources where people if they're

[00:27:19] like, OK, this is interesting to me.

[00:27:20] I want to learn more.

[00:27:22] I want to dig in and get connected with somebody like you that knows what you're

[00:27:26] doing and you've been in and around this industry for quite a while.

[00:27:29] Yeah, thank you, Paul.

[00:27:31] My book that I wrote is called The Little Green Book of Node Investing,

[00:27:37] and it provides a high level overview of the node investing business

[00:27:42] and the industry, how things work.

[00:27:45] And we take a deep dive into different areas like how to perform due diligence

[00:27:50] how to evaluate notes, how to evaluate note funds.

[00:27:55] Really the differences between active and passive investing.

[00:27:59] So that would help help you to decide which is right for you.

[00:28:03] And we also spend a lot of time talking about investing out of retirement accounts

[00:28:09] investing of self-directed IRAs or 401 keys or my favorite of them all,

[00:28:16] which is the Roth IRA, which is totally tax free.

[00:28:20] It's a great strategy because note investing, it generates tax liability.

[00:28:26] And so if you can partner that up with the tax

[00:28:30] preferred treatment in retirement accounts can be very powerful.

[00:28:36] It really helps skyrocket your return when you do that.

[00:28:40] So we cover a lot of these topics in the book.

[00:28:42] It's called The Little Green Book of Node Investing, and it's available on Amazon.

[00:28:48] And if anyone would like to connect with me, I always invite

[00:28:54] invite listeners, reach out, connect with me.

[00:28:56] I love building relationships, meaning investors.

[00:29:00] You can visit my website, which is Fred Moskowitz.com.

[00:29:05] And if you prefer a little bit of an easier spelling,

[00:29:09] you can instead go to giftfromfred.com.

[00:29:13] It'll send you right to my website.

[00:29:16] And once you're there, I have a special report on node investing.

[00:29:20] I'm happy to send that out to anyone that would like to request that.

[00:29:24] And so yeah, please visit the site, check out the book and connect with me.

[00:29:29] I always love meeting investors and connecting with folks.

[00:29:33] Oh, that's that's excellent.

[00:29:35] Excellent, Fred.

[00:29:36] So it's giftfromfred.com.

[00:29:37] Yes.

[00:29:39] That's the easy one.

[00:29:40] I'm into the easy button.

[00:29:43] Although we'll get your other website in the show notes and all that.

[00:29:46] Well, Fred, this has been fascinating.

[00:29:48] It's it's again, we don't we don't have this conversation often in terms of

[00:29:52] like the behind the veil and the opportunities that are behind the veil.

[00:29:56] And I know that they're they're much bigger than we even went into today.

[00:29:59] But I think this is a great starting point for people that that want to

[00:30:03] to look to diversify and expand and that get that passive income rolling.

[00:30:08] So I'm going to suggest it and perhaps we can we can do this again in the future

[00:30:12] or maybe pick up maybe a narrower topic here and go a little deeper on it.

[00:30:16] Yeah, I'd love that, Paul.

[00:30:17] Thank you.

[00:30:18] Yeah.

[00:30:19] Yeah, wonderful.

[00:30:20] Look, I appreciate it.

[00:30:21] And Fred, thanks again and have an amazing day.

[00:30:24] Hey gang, just wind it down here today.

[00:30:26] Thanks for listening to the show.

[00:30:27] And as always, if you need capital to grow your business,

[00:30:31] you're looking to purchase commercial real estate or build, build a building

[00:30:37] or invest in commercial real estate.

[00:30:38] You're looking to to acquire a business or a competitor or just need growth capital.

[00:30:43] We'd love to talk to you.

[00:30:44] We fund businesses all day long.

[00:30:46] Our mission is to help entrepreneurs win and to fund their businesses

[00:30:50] and fund their dreams so that they can make an impact in their community.

[00:30:54] Reach out to me today.

[00:30:55] Go to our website, click the button to schedule a 20 minute conversation,

[00:30:58] discovery call.

[00:31:00] We'll have a quick conversation, see if there's a need to see if there's a fit.

[00:31:03] And we can take it from there.

[00:31:05] The website is VPC, Victor Paul Charlie dot capital.

[00:31:11] That's VPC dot capital.

[00:31:15] All right, there's no dot com on that.

[00:31:16] It's VPC dot capital.

[00:31:18] As always, keep crushing it and hope to see you soon around here.

[00:31:23] Take care.