Real Estate Tax Strategies

[00:00:00] Hey, welcome listeners today and viewers. I have the distinct honor and privilege today of having Chris McCormick on the show today. And you're going to want to pay attention and tune in because I know you guys are real estate investors, most of your business owners, and you're looking to figure out ways to beat the tax man because as we all know, the more money we make, the more of the tax man becomes our fan boy and wants to dig deep into our pockets. And while I'm all about paying a legitimate amount to help support our systems,

[00:00:30] and government and all that, there's no sense in any of us paying more than we should pay.

[00:00:36] Welcome to the Brick and Mortar Money Show, the podcast dedicated to helping business owners and professionals achieve wealth, autonomy, and control through commercial property ownership. Join us as we unlock the power of real estate to transform your business and investment strategies.

[00:00:54] Whether you're seeking to expand, invest, or gain more freedom in your entrepreneurial journey, this is your destination for insightful stories, expert advice, and actionable strategies. Welcome.

[00:01:12] Chris is the CEO and the founder of Better Books Accounting, and their total focus is on taxes and accounting for real estate investors. So he's got an inside angle that maybe some generic accountants and CPAs don't have. So Chris, welcome to the show today.

[00:01:31] Thank you, Paul. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.

[00:01:34] Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. So just real quick, give us some background. How did you get into accounting and specifically in real estate? What's the story for you, man?

[00:01:44] Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, accounting goes back to college days. My parents, like most American parents, are putting their kids on a trajectory that leads to college.

[00:01:55] And I thought it would be good to come in with some sort of idea of what I wanted to do with the idea that it could also change in the future.

[00:02:04] And so I knew numbers and math came pretty easy to me. So I went in as an accounting major and it never changed. It took me the four years and then a fifth year of additional grad school to get all of the credits necessary to study for CPA exam, but eventually got my CPA and started with PwC, big accounting firm in Boston.

[00:02:30] And while there, I was working for some of the biggest companies that you've heard of their financial service companies, insurance companies, banks, and doing a lot of tax and audit work for them.

[00:02:44] I quickly realized that what they're doing with their money is something that a lot of people that might not know, but they can do it with their money as well.

[00:02:55] And that paired with reading books that I'm sure your audience is familiar with, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Bigger Pockets books.

[00:03:02] You come to realize that real estate investing is great, but one thing that a lot of people in real estate are missing is the tax knowledge.

[00:03:09] You get in because you know that there are tax benefits, but putting it all together to actually seize those tax benefits is another story.

[00:03:19] So I saw that there was a gap and I quickly went to fill that gap and use some of the talents and resources that God has given me.

[00:03:29] And it's led me to starting my firm about three years ago.

[00:03:32] And from there, we've kind of built this thing up.

[00:03:36] We've used social media to build it fully remotely.

[00:03:40] So we serve clients all around the U.S.

[00:03:42] And my wife has recently joined the team about a year, almost a year and a half ago.

[00:03:46] And she's doing a lot of marketing and helping our prospects get in the door so we can get a gauge on what they're looking for and whether we have the services that are a good fit for them.

[00:03:58] So that's a grand overview.

[00:04:00] It's been a few years in the making, but it's a journey and a lot of fun doing so.

[00:04:06] Well, that's awesome, man.

[00:04:07] I love it.

[00:04:08] I love the fact that you're not just an accountant and a CPA, but you are an entrepreneur.

[00:04:13] And so, you know, that's kind of how my mold was cut.

[00:04:17] I kind of went the same way.

[00:04:19] You not accounting, but went to college, was good at math and science, so studied engineering.

[00:04:23] And it really, because I wanted to invent something and be rich, if the truth be known.

[00:04:29] But the reality is, you know, the skills I learned of just problem solving and all that have applied in other areas, which is a good thing because I haven't worked in engineering.

[00:04:39] I didn't work in it for very long out of school.

[00:04:42] But that journey, so you got to see sort of both sides.

[00:04:45] So you did the educational thing, but then you also got dropped in the probably 60, 70, 80-hour work week in these corporate megaliths, right, in Boston and trial by fire, right?

[00:04:59] That's what they do with the young guys.

[00:05:00] They do it and they put them to work and squeeze all the life out of you, right, all the juice they can get.

[00:05:05] Yeah, you nailed it.

[00:05:07] It's a grind for sure.

[00:05:09] And everybody has their own business model, but it didn't take me long to realize that there's other opportunities out there.

[00:05:17] And I'm all for working hard, but there's got to be some reason to working hard.

[00:05:22] And it's also got to be something that is sustainable.

[00:05:25] And the path that I was on wasn't sustainable for myself.

[00:05:29] And so, yeah, I saw the open door and went through it.

[00:05:33] That's awesome.

[00:05:34] Yeah, well, the cool thing about that, too, is not only did you see the open door and you went through the grind, but I'm sure you learned a lot.

[00:05:40] And the trial by fire, I mean, you drop in.

[00:05:42] You learn something when you're in college, but the reality is most of us learn more outside of college than in college, right, just through application experience and all that.

[00:05:51] And so just by going through the grind and being exposed to a lot of things fast and, you know, I'm sure was super helpful for you in your process.

[00:07:30] And one is appreciation, right?

[00:07:33] That's going to come over the course of time.

[00:07:35] So to answer your question, Paul, is like what it does for the pocketbook over the course of time.

[00:07:41] That usually comes in the form of appreciation.

[00:07:43] Number two is cash flow.

[00:07:45] You mentioned the cash on cash return.

[00:07:47] And if your property is not flowing with cash, you have a problem.

[00:07:51] And especially if you're in the multifamily space and dealing with other people's money, you want to make sure that you're getting that money back to them as soon as possible.

[00:08:00] The third piece of the puzzle is the leverage piece.

[00:08:04] And that goes hand in hand with the fourth piece of tax benefit.

[00:08:07] But the third piece, leverage, like you use debt to acquire the property so that you don't have to get $2 million in cash to buy a $2 million building.

[00:08:17] And then you tap into that leverage to continue to expand your portfolio.

[00:08:21] And that's part of the fourth piece, which is the tax benefit.

[00:08:24] But really, if your property doesn't have all four of those pieces, it's not running as efficiently or as smoothly or it's not generating as much prosperity that it could for you and your investors.

[00:08:38] So there's a whole host of things that we look at.

[00:08:41] If you come on as a client, we're going to do a deep dive into your prior year tax return, what you got set up, see if there's any mistakes or missed opportunities to really at least get the foundation set.

[00:08:53] And then from there, it's like, okay, planning for the future, looking at some more advanced tax strategies, which some people might be familiar with, some people might not be.

[00:09:03] But there's a whole host of benefits.

[00:09:06] One is, I mean, a term that most people know is depreciation.

[00:09:10] So you get the appreciation over the course of time.

[00:09:13] But the IRS will also give you a tax benefit in the form of depreciation.

[00:09:18] So regardless of whether it's going up in value, the IRS says because it's a physical asset and there's some wear and tear to it, they're going to let you depreciate it.

[00:09:30] And it's kind of this crazy thing.

[00:09:34] Like you think of depreciation and you think of a car driving off the lot.

[00:09:37] Everybody's familiar.

[00:09:37] Like it goes down a third of the value as soon as you drive it off the lot.

[00:09:42] But real estate, they give you depreciation.

[00:09:44] But so long as it's a good property, it's going to go up in value.

[00:09:49] So that's why there's such a benefit to this industry.

[00:09:55] And it's working with the right team and finding the right people so that you don't have to find out all of these strategies.

[00:10:01] Because, yeah, I could list five, ten different things on this call that you could have in the back of your head.

[00:10:08] But if you're not working with somebody that's able to actually put it to action and make sure that you're seizing the opportunity, then you're just as good as you were before knowing about it.

[00:10:18] So I think knowing, one, that you need tax benefits and, two, having the right team to apply those tax benefits is a huge part of this market.

[00:10:26] Do you think it's helpful to, in context or light of these four sort of characteristics of an investment to review and consider, to go into before you pull the trigger on a purchase contract or engage in a deal, to understand property specific?

[00:10:46] I mean, obviously the cash flow and the appreciation and leverage.

[00:10:50] But is it something that, like on a case-by-case basis, you should be talking to maybe your accountant or CPA about?

[00:10:56] What are the tax implications of this next purchase going to be?

[00:11:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:01] So that's a great question.

[00:11:03] And I was just working with some of our clients last week on a similar manner.

[00:11:06] It's like, depending on the type of property they buy, we can either take the full benefit of depreciation or get no benefit of depreciation.

[00:11:17] So if they didn't have somebody in their corner that's working with them to tell them, yeah, you want to go in this direction, so long as it meets the cash flow requirements and the appreciation requirements, then if we can, if it's between getting the tax benefit and not getting the tax benefit, you're going to want to make sure that you're working with the right people ahead of time to know.

[00:11:35] Because, yeah, there's a lot of people that come in our door and they're like, hey, I want to do a cost segregation on this property.

[00:11:41] I spoke with the engineer about it.

[00:11:42] Like, we can get this much of a benefit.

[00:11:44] And then I'm like, hey, because of the way real estate is taxed, like, yeah, there's a benefit for some people and this would be great for someone, but I'm not sure you fit that fold.

[00:11:55] And it's, I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

[00:11:58] It's better to give them that news ahead of time and say, but if you did this, then we can secure the property, get the appreciation, get the cash flow and get the tax benefit to it.

[00:12:09] Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:10] Well, you don't want to definitely know who wants to be the bearer of bad news, but it's better to find out up front before you sign on the dotted line, the proverbial dotted line, right?

[00:12:19] Once you're in, you're in.

[00:12:20] And then you're cleaning up the mess as opposed to being proactive about it.

[00:12:26] I know I had a really good CPA for a number of years and it took me a while to learn that I used to dread the meetings every year because it was how big the check was going to be that I had to write.

[00:12:37] And, but what he taught me to do and conditioned me over time was no, if we, if we meet ahead of time, we can strategize and plan.

[00:12:47] And then decisions you make can maybe reduce the size of that check you're going to write, you know, annually and you'd be prepared for that.

[00:12:54] And, and cause before I used to think of it, you know, an accountant, a CPA is just kind of a necessary expense you have to have, right?

[00:13:02] You got to fill out forms at the end of the year and keep, keep the IRS from, you know, jackbooting your door and coming in.

[00:13:08] But the reality of it is if you're in business and if you're real estate investing, whether you, you have a quote unquote, another business or you're like a, you know, you work a job or you're a professional.

[00:13:21] Every, every piece of real estate you buy is a business acquisition, right?

[00:13:24] So you're in business.

[00:13:27] And in fact, I like to think of like, like particularly like a multifamily property.

[00:13:32] It's, you know, every, everyone you buy is its own business, right?

[00:13:35] It's got its own cashflow, its own P and L, its own balance sheet and things like that.

[00:13:39] Um, okay.

[00:13:41] So we want to be proactive to understand and you brought up something here that maybe you can go a little, little deeper on without getting too technical.

[00:13:49] Yeah.

[00:13:49] Um, your, your comment that like cost segregation may apply it up to one and not to another.

[00:13:56] Um, are you sort of referring loosely to this idea of like passive income versus active income and that sort of thing?

[00:14:04] Yeah, you got it, Paul.

[00:14:05] I think it, it, it helps to just get clear on like what real estate is and how it's taxed.

[00:14:12] It's, I mean, a lot of people are familiar.

[00:14:14] I'm sure.

[00:14:15] Um, you might've even talked about this in previous episodes, but yeah, the, the, the difference between active income and passive income and why real estate is passive in nature really came out in like the 1980s, I think 1990s maybe.

[00:14:30] But the IRS and Congress, they, they started to realize that, okay, there's this thing called depreciation.

[00:14:38] People are picking up on it.

[00:14:40] We see doctors and lawyers and dentists making $600,000 a year, and then they're buying three properties.

[00:14:46] And now we don't get any taxes on it because they're using this, this depreciation.

[00:14:49] And, and obviously for the doctors, the lawyers, and the dentists, that's great.

[00:14:53] And, and for all of us that, that wants to continue to buy properties and offset income, that would be nice.

[00:14:58] But Congress doesn't like that.

[00:15:00] IRS doesn't like that.

[00:15:01] Uncle Sam doesn't like it.

[00:15:02] And so they instilled a law that basically said all real estate is income is passive in nature, unless you can qualify it as active by meeting what they know as, or what they refer to as real estate professional status.

[00:15:18] And there's seven tests that you can meet in order to do that.

[00:15:23] Typically we, we see this in, in realtors, property managers, landlords, investors, depending on the situation.

[00:15:33] If you have a W2, it's quite hard to meet it, but it's not impossible.

[00:15:37] There are some loopholes out there.

[00:15:40] Short-term rentals is one of them.

[00:15:42] So we see a lot of people going to the short-term rental market for this reason.

[00:15:47] But yeah, I don't need to get into all the weeds.

[00:15:50] I'd be happy to answer any other questions.

[00:15:52] But the point being is that if you're just going and buying a property and cost seg in it, or taking any form of accelerated depreciation on it, there's a good chance if you're working a W2 job or you're running another business that you're not going to get the full benefit of that.

[00:16:08] But there's also a good chance that if you meet with the right team, you can make some adjustments to make it work or at least get some of the benefit.

[00:16:17] And that comes with having the right advice, meeting on a regular basis, getting ahead of it rather than saying in February or March, hey, I bought this property.

[00:16:25] I also got this study done and I'm hoping you can prepare my return.

[00:16:30] Which by the way, I spent thousands of dollars on, right?

[00:16:32] Yeah, right, exactly.

[00:16:34] I have, and don't quote me on this, and this is off the record, but I do know of some investors that have, and I don't do their taxes, clearly.

[00:16:45] And so I don't know if it's been effective or not.

[00:16:49] But I've had some clients talk about positioning a spouse to be the real estate investor so that you get some benefit there on this, what you're talking about, as opposed to maybe of a high performing professional making a lot of money and their spouse.

[00:17:07] Maybe the wife makes all the money and the husband, I don't know, watches the kids or whatever.

[00:17:11] And he's got time and he can go out and be the real estate investor or whatever, but perhaps that might be one way to structure it for somebody to create.

[00:17:20] You know, we might be hiring soon here, Paul.

[00:17:22] So if you want a job as a CPA, you might be able to work for us.

[00:17:26] But yeah, we've done stuff like that on a regular basis.

[00:17:29] It's just important to know what the rules are, what the guidelines are.

[00:17:34] Because yeah, you could say spouse is a real estate professional, but if they're not meeting the hour requirement, then the IRS is going to throw it out as quickly as they would any other non-approved method.

[00:17:48] But yeah, there's some creative things you can do.

[00:17:50] And that's part of the fun.

[00:17:52] It's like this puzzle is like, okay, the goal is to pay as little as possible to Uncle Sam.

[00:17:58] How can we fit all the pieces together to make it work and get that finished piece, which is a low tax bill?

[00:18:05] And it's a moving target, right?

[00:18:08] I mean, they monkey with the tax code every year.

[00:18:12] And people's situation changes every year.

[00:18:14] The market changes every year, right?

[00:18:16] I mean, interest rates are up, interest rates are down.

[00:18:18] You know?

[00:18:19] Right.

[00:18:20] My favorite line from Jerry Seinfeld talking about the market.

[00:18:22] The market is up and the market is down.

[00:18:24] The market is down and the market is up.

[00:18:26] Right.

[00:18:28] So it is a very dynamic thing.

[00:18:30] But along those lines, one thing that we both know, right, that there's not a lot of sureties in life.

[00:18:39] But one of them is there's no more dirt being created, right?

[00:18:44] There's no more space out there.

[00:18:47] But the population is growing.

[00:18:49] It's getting larger.

[00:18:51] Inflation is probably never going to go away, right?

[00:18:54] The government loves some inflation, a little bit, not too much.

[00:18:58] But they definitely don't want no inflation.

[00:19:01] And so real estate over time, you know, it fluctuates in the short run like everything, right?

[00:19:08] But over time, wouldn't you agree that it's a pretty safe bet if we're looking over a 10-year horizon or a 15- or a 20-year horizon that most likely it's going to be worth a lot more in the future than it is today, right?

[00:19:21] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:23] And I think anybody who's bought their first home would agree with that.

[00:19:26] Even if you're not considered a real estate investor, you've seen your home go up in value.

[00:19:32] I mean, we have my parents-in-laws.

[00:19:35] They have a home that they bought 20-some-odd years ago, maybe 30 years ago, and it's just increased in value.

[00:19:43] Now they have a developer that's thinking of developing near them, and that increases the value even more.

[00:19:48] So, yeah, there's a lot of things that can play into it.

[00:19:50] But I think it said like 90% of millionaires became that way through the power of real estate.

[00:19:56] And that's because if you buy a property and you buy it and hold it for the long term, like there's a good chance that it's going to increase in value.

[00:20:03] And you don't need too many of those to pass that million-dollar mark.

[00:20:08] And also because you're paying off the debt, and that just increases the amount of equity that you're building up.

[00:20:14] So I think it's a safe investment.

[00:20:17] I think everybody should be diversified as much as I can.

[00:20:20] And I say that even from a tax perspective.

[00:20:23] Like we look at different avenues.

[00:20:26] Real estate's not the only thing we're looking at.

[00:20:28] Retirement accounts are in play, but we don't put everything in retirement accounts because we want people to be diversified.

[00:20:36] And from an investment standpoint and a tax standpoint, it's important.

[00:20:41] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:42] Well, you mentioned we pay down the debt.

[00:20:45] But the reality is we hopefully have tenants paying down the debt, right?

[00:20:48] Right.

[00:20:48] That's kind of the goal.

[00:20:49] We're letting other people benefit from the property.

[00:20:52] And oh, by the way, can you pay for it while you're in there?

[00:20:54] It appreciates in value.

[00:20:56] Right.

[00:20:57] So speaking about appreciation and time and that sort of thing, this whole concept, I want you to talk a little bit about the idea of this 1031 exchange and the idea.

[00:21:06] And I've got lots of examples of people that have done it.

[00:21:09] But talk about what it is and then what I'm curious about from an accounting standpoint, if you can leverage that concept.

[00:21:17] And let's say maybe you have children, grandchildren or something, and you're deferring your taxable gain for all this number of years.

[00:21:27] Theoretically, can I pass that to my kids?

[00:21:30] And what happens from a tax standpoint there?

[00:21:32] If you can sort of start us from basics and walk us through that.

[00:21:37] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:38] So point A would be you buy your first property, hold it for 5, 10 years.

[00:21:43] And because of what we're talking about, it's appreciated in value.

[00:21:46] And now you have a capital gain.

[00:21:48] And so capital gains are just the gain that occurs from a capital asset, which is any asset held for more than 12 months a year.

[00:21:57] And so what you do in that standpoint, if you just sell it without getting any sort of planning or without doing any research, you're going to be on the hook for a pretty large tax bill.

[00:22:10] And it varies depending on how big the gain is.

[00:22:12] It's lower than your typical ordinary income rate.

[00:22:17] But if you have a choice between paying taxes and not paying taxes, I'm always going to point you to the not paying taxes.

[00:22:25] And so 1031 exchange gives you the ability to defer that capital gain if you buy a property of equal or greater value within a certain time period.

[00:22:37] So there's time requirements that you have to meet.

[00:22:40] You have to have the property chosen within 45 days.

[00:22:45] Like you have to have your eyes on the specific property.

[00:22:48] And then you have to close within 180 days after that sale that triggered that capital gain.

[00:22:53] And then it's deferred.

[00:22:55] And so the idea is that, OK, you deferred it.

[00:22:59] But if you went and sold that property and didn't do anything after it, you would be on the hook for that capital gain and whatever additional tax you would pay as a result of this new appreciation.

[00:23:09] And so what you can do if you're planning ahead and smart about this is you can 1031, 1031, 1031 and do it unlimited amounts of times because there is no limit according to current tax code.

[00:23:24] And so by the time you get to 85, 90 years old and you're thinking about the next life and and what you're going to leave behind,

[00:23:32] the tax code also includes something in there that says, OK, if you pass on your capital assets now increase to their fair market value and go to their your beneficiaries at that that new level tax free.

[00:23:50] So you start at two hundred thousand dollars, you 1031 at enough times.

[00:23:54] It's now two million dollars.

[00:23:55] You pass on your grandchild gets a property starting at two million dollars.

[00:24:02] They avoid all that that capital gains.

[00:24:05] And now they have a nice cash flowing asset that they can build their legacy on.

[00:24:11] And so it's it's really this this beautiful thing.

[00:24:13] And some people are like, well, hey, I want to to kind of recognize the fruit of my labor.

[00:24:18] And and we bought this capital asset and it's appreciated in value.

[00:24:23] And now that we sell it, we have to lock it back up in another property.

[00:24:27] And I'd say yes.

[00:24:28] But we turn to that third piece of the real estate puzzle, which is the leverage piece.

[00:24:34] And I say you can 1031 into a new property and then you can tap into that property through the power of leverage because that is also going to come to you tax free.

[00:24:45] And so you can refinance or get a new loan on the property, tap into some of the equity that you've built up.

[00:24:51] And now you have some some liquidity to your name as well.

[00:24:56] Yeah, just so many so many opportunities.

[00:24:58] That is so cool.

[00:24:59] It's like one one like in your face way to beat the tax man in his own game.

[00:25:03] Right.

[00:25:04] And maybe it's not your entire portfolio, but maybe you maybe you you build a portfolio of five or 10 properties and you take one of them and it's your the piece that you're going to pass on to your kids or your grandkids or whomever.

[00:25:17] And you can pass a stepped up in value like that.

[00:25:20] And they avoid and everyone avoids the tax man completely on that, which I think is is phenomenal.

[00:25:25] It seems it seems to inform us to this idea that this is one thing the government seems to be pro incentivizing about.

[00:25:33] Right.

[00:25:33] They seem to want us to to invest in real estate.

[00:25:36] Right.

[00:25:37] Because it's still favorable to do that in America, thankfully.

[00:25:43] So awesome, man.

[00:25:45] These are these are these just amazing the things you can do if you know what you're doing and you strategize about it.

[00:25:51] Right.

[00:25:51] And so that's what you guys do.

[00:25:54] Tell me this, because we talked about when you're 95 and you decide and you maybe don't decide, but you move on to the next life.

[00:26:02] And I see your I see your banner behind you.

[00:26:04] So tell me how your faith kind of informs your business and your approach to business.

[00:26:09] Oh, man, that's a great question.

[00:26:11] It's everything, really.

[00:26:14] The God's word has has all the wisdom we need for each and every day.

[00:26:18] Jesus says he's he's the bread of life.

[00:26:20] And so we get our our spiritual nourishment from him.

[00:26:24] And I do think business is a spiritual activity in the fact that God has made us for relationship and no business is without relationships, whether it's customer or employees or business partners or investors.

[00:26:38] And so we need to know how to handle those relationships.

[00:26:41] And we don't do it perfectly.

[00:26:43] But if it's rooted in in love and truth and you're you have a common goal in serving each other, then there's it's a win win for everyone.

[00:26:53] And it it provides the highest amount of joy and fulfillment.

[00:26:58] And I think just to go a little bit deeper, Paul, like when I started this journey, it it was a call from the Lord.

[00:27:06] And that might feel a little weird to some people.

[00:27:09] But I didn't know God until like right before I left PwC and ventured off into this journey.

[00:27:18] And that's when I started reading the Bible for the first time.

[00:27:21] And I saw Proverbs and what it says about saving for tomorrow and investing in the future and loving your wife and all this this wisdom that we know of, whether we read the Bible or not.

[00:27:34] And and it was right there in the book of wisdom and God's word.

[00:27:39] And so that really caused me to take seriously what the rest of the Bible said.

[00:27:44] And from that, I discovered who Jesus was in his own words.

[00:27:47] And it's been a life transformative process.

[00:27:50] Like I said, I don't get it right every day, but it does positively impact my every day.

[00:27:55] And I'm not sure where I'd be without it.

[00:27:57] No, that's awesome.

[00:27:59] Very well said.

[00:28:00] I agree and concur 100 percent.

[00:28:01] And and yeah, people ask me what what book you're reading.

[00:28:06] And it's like, what's your best favorite business book?

[00:28:09] Well, the Bible is the best business book ever created.

[00:28:11] I mean, you know, you go to Genesis, started Genesis one.

[00:28:14] And God talks about, you know, how creative we're supposed to be.

[00:28:17] We're made in his image and he created it and we want to create.

[00:28:20] And so I think that business ownership is a unique place to to live it and express it.

[00:28:27] And I think that's a great thing.

[00:28:27] Because for all the reasons you mentioned about the relationships and the spiritual thing, in addition to that, I think it's the you know, there is no safety net.

[00:28:37] Right.

[00:28:37] When you're in business, you're not going to get a paycheck on Friday just because you showed up and punched the clock.

[00:28:42] Right.

[00:28:43] It's you're having to add value to somebody, enough value to get paid.

[00:28:50] And which is always I get up, you know, I always scratch my head when people talk about, you know, all the all the business people, they just want to be rich and greedy and all that.

[00:28:59] It's like, you know, or they can have, you know, they could be racist or they can have this or that.

[00:29:04] It's like, no, business people have to serve.

[00:29:07] They serve everybody.

[00:29:08] And the better they serve, the more they're rewarded.

[00:29:11] And if they treated anybody poorly, they don't last long.

[00:29:15] Right.

[00:29:16] In business.

[00:29:17] So it's a great place to to walk out your faith and and have some some amazing things happen.

[00:29:23] So that's for sure.

[00:29:24] That's awesome.

[00:29:25] Yeah.

[00:29:25] Well, look, we're about out of time.

[00:29:28] So tell everyone how they can get in contact with you if they need a great CPA, accountant, the firm to help them with a real estate investing in taxes and planning and all the things that we've talked about here today.

[00:29:40] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:42] That's I appreciate the shout out.

[00:29:44] I think the best place to check out what we're doing is on Facebook.

[00:29:47] We have a Facebook group.

[00:29:50] It's growing.

[00:29:50] It's called tax and accounting for real estate investors.

[00:29:53] We post in there regularly.

[00:29:55] We do a live at least once a week to talk about whatever tax strategies are on people's minds and answer some of the questions there.

[00:30:03] So that's a great introduction.

[00:30:05] And then if you know that this is something that you're interested in, then you can check out our Web sites and and shoot me an email at Chris at Better Books Accounting dot C.

[00:30:15] Oh, but as far as social media goes, Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn.

[00:30:18] We're building out our Instagrams a little bit more.

[00:30:21] So anywhere anywhere you find time to connect with people or find the space to connect with people, you can likely find me under my name.

[00:30:29] And then we do have a podcast where we post weekly episodes about tax and accounting specific to real estate investors.

[00:30:36] That's know your numbers, R-E-I podcast.

[00:30:40] And again, my name is probably the host name there, too.

[00:30:43] So it's been awesome, Paul.

[00:30:45] And I really appreciate you having me on and giving us the opportunity to serve your listeners.

[00:30:51] That's awesome, man.

[00:30:53] I really appreciate your time and your wisdom, Chris.

[00:30:55] I'll get this stuff in the show notes.

[00:30:59] We'll have our people do that so people can find it and click it and do all the things that you're supposed to do.

[00:31:03] Right. But you seem like you'd be an awesome resource.

[00:31:07] So, again, I appreciate your your time and expertise.

[00:31:12] And thanks for joining us, man.

[00:31:14] Awesome. Thanks for having me.